Episode 7: Ben Berman

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Episode Transcript

Nicholas Paulukow
All right, welcome, welcome, welcome. My fellow seekers of servant leadership wisdom, gather around the digital hearth as we delve into the treasure troves of insights within the hallowed halls of our very own Servant Leader’s Library. I’m your guide through this learning process, your curator of compassion, your purveyor of purpose, Nicholas Paulukow.

And today, we have a special treat in store for you. Joining us on this enlightening expedition is none other than the maestro of management, the sage of strategy, and the one and only Ben Berman. Wow.

As an EOS Facilitator and seasoned entrepreneur, Ben doesn’t just walk the walk of servant leadership; he dances it with finesse and flair. Get ready to be inspired, informed, and ignited as we unlock the secrets to success with Ben in our cozy corner of the podcast universe. So, my fellow knowledge seekers, grab your headphones and prepare to embark on an odyssey of organizational enlightenment with Ben Berman and the Servant Leadership Library.

Ben, welcome to Servant Leader’s Library. We’re so glad to have you with us today.

Ben Berman
Great to be here.

Nicholas Paulukow
We are definitely on the right track. So, Ben, you’re going to get us started today. Tell our listeners a little bit about yourself. I see that you’re an expert EOS implementer, StoryBrand consultant, and the visionary of What If. What does that all mean? Can you tell us a little bit more?

Ben Berman
Absolutely. For a little bit of background, I’ve been a lifelong entrepreneur. I’ve been trying to start harebrained schemes out of my basement since I was a kid.

Eventually, some of them actually worked. I was able to work my way up through a number of really exciting and successful ventures. One of which was a rocket ship where we were adding people by, quite literally, the busload.

We had the backend; it was commission-only sales. We had to get our arms around all this craziness and growth. And that was awesome. Rocket ship, hold on with both hands. And that was the fun part.

Then, because apparently I’m a masochist, I got brought in right after that to turn a business around that I didn’t know was a turnaround.

Nicholas Paulukow
But I knew.

Ben Berman
Yeah, I knew it was a turnaround when on my third day of work, I was running it, and this was in my early 20s. A guy who was twice my age tried to punch out another sales guy over a dispute. Yeah, it was intense. So, a little bit of a different feel.

Nicholas Paulukow
It’s like WWE at the office.

Ben Berman
Oh yeah, WWE, people’s elbow, right? That’s a throwback to The Rock’s old move. That’s what I was watching back in the day.

But yeah, it was all the worldwide and none of the entertainment of worldwide, right? So, it was nuts. But all in all, I just kind of, and I think I’ll get to this.

I started out as a terrible leader. I thought I was one, but I really didn’t know what I was doing. I know I made a ton of mistakes along the way, so much so that I can share some of them with you here today.

One of the things that helped me unlock my ability was this thing called EOS, the Entrepreneurial Operating System. Essentially, we call it business hygiene. If you run a business, I don’t care what you call it, and you want to be successful, you’re doing these things, right?

You’re getting some kind of vision for the future, where you’re going, and how you’re going to get there. You’re getting some semblance of an execution, strategy execution against that vision. We happen to call that traction.

And then finally, obviously, when you hold people accountable to an ambitious goal, there can be friction when there are human beings. Even as I’ve seen with AI, there’s friction, and we help smooth out that friction as well. Together, that complete suite of tools and disciplines, both for the person and for the business as a whole, helped me really unlock my potential many times over.

And I’ve been privileged and blessed to be able to do that many times over for my clients, one of whom I’m talking to right now, believe it or not.

Nicholas Paulukow
That is right. The infamous Ben, expert EOS implementer, has brought our business, ONE 2 ONE, together in so many amazing ways. So, you all have to listen because this man has a lot to say.

I still have to go back to kind of that WWE event. It’s sticking in my head. You said that you were kind of struggling as a leader. For those who maybe were in your position that are there now, what were some things that you meant that you were struggling with that EOS kind of straightened out for you?

Ben Berman
Well, I think that in the absence of structure, issues abound. Anything that was an issue with me when I started was only amplified by the lack of structure. I was worried that I was too young to manage people above.

I wasn’t too young; I just wasn’t using the right tools. I wasn’t using the right practices. So, yeah, I would say that was the key because when you have a clear understanding of where you’re going and everyone’s pumped up to get there, it becomes very clear who’s on the bus and who isn’t. And then when they’re on the bus and we’re tracking, hey, are you doing what you’re supposed to be doing? You’re in the seat.

Here are your clear expectations, quantitatively, qualitatively. People make this seem like it’s so hard. Well, let me cancel that.

People make it seem like it’s so simple. It can be simple, but it’s incredibly difficult. It’s exceedingly difficult even when you have all the tools.

So I would say without them, you’re really kind of, my coach used to say, shadow boxing in the dark.

Nicholas Paulukow
Oh, that’s a good one. In my world, right in the beginning, when you’re smaller, we called it kind of, you’re using muscle and feel. Like everything was great because you were right in there.

You were in the ring instead of now being out of the ring, giving direction to the person that’s boxing. That was our transition. But you definitely educated us through that process, right?

Like how to be more of the coach than the player, right? Yeah, yeah.

Ben Berman
And I think a lot of times there’s a, and I certainly would, looking back on myself, there’s this ego. When someone becomes a high performer and they step into a leadership role, many times what got them to that first game, what made them successful in the first is the thing that’s going to prevent them from being successful in the latter, right? In the latter, yep.

So, you know, a lot of times, sales leaders, for instance, right? So you get a great salesperson, they’re working their way up the ranks, they end up being a sales manager. That ego has to be flipped on its head.

That competitiveness, yeah, you could be competitive, but it’s co-oppetition with all the people around you as opposed to competition that’s directly against your peers.

Nicholas Paulukow
Yeah, what’s Patrick Lencioni say? You know, you have to be humble, hungry, and smart, right? Like you have to really be open and humble and still be hungry, right?

But you have to be open to feedback or doing things a little differently.

Ben Berman
Yeah, yeah, I love that you said that, right? Ideal team player, Pat Lencioni. And for those who don’t have core values, you can borrow those for now, because if you find someone hungry, humble, and smart, and you yourself are hungry, humble, and smart, or even just two of those things, at least humility being there, then you’ll go a long way.

But I think there’s also a lesson there on the humility side where there’s this, the other issue, and I’m just going to basically exercise all my sins here, all my demons, because I think it’s helpful to admit where you were wrong. Right, and for the longest time, I thought I had to know the answers. There was this strategic hubris.

I was the leader. I had this picture of what I thought a leader was. And in fact, it’s actually the opposite.

That is not a leverageable game. But if you’re able to lower your status and unlock the best from others, and that be your focus, now you can have 10X, 100X your time. Whereas if you’re just focusing on yourself, there’s a very distinct ceiling there.

Nicholas Paulukow
Well, I think that’s like a definition of what some of us would consider like servant leadership. Right, like, I mean, now, like what you’re kind of saying, or maybe let me validate that is, is that now when you become a leader, it’s about the team. It’s not about you anymore.

So if you’re an individual contributor, it was great that you had individual success, but now you’re switching that to, you know, more outward facing to that team, not just to the individual. I think that’s really great. I think we see a lot of people have a really hard time switching that gear, right?

They have a really hard time of understanding what does it mean like, that I’m not the smartest guy in the room, but I’m now, you know, leaning forward and being open and honest and coaching people now. It’s really hard. They’re just like, hey, at my age, I think I should just be a manager, right?

Like that, that is really hard to hear because many times they fail, right? Or we’re really good at coaching some people that shouldn’t be in management roles, and EOS has given us a lot of tools to help us identify, you know, what that journey looks like.

Ben Berman
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And I think to your point, there’s this perspective on what a leader is versus what a leader does and what those expectations are. And, you know, people, I think, can think about, oh, I got to hit these numbers.

I got to do these things. I got to be the smartest person in the room. And even if you are, and for leaders out there who look around your team, you go, they’re just not, they’re not seasoned enough, or maybe they don’t even have the intellectual horsepower as an individual contributor.

So be it, right? Cool, cool, you won the one-person game, but you’re really going to tell me if you’re that smart and good that you can’t go and win the better game where you can leverage yourself? Yeah, I could completely agree.

Nicholas Paulukow
So tell me a little bit about, I’m really still curious about your growth, right? Because a lot of that has happened, the same for us from a leadership perspective of like being an entrepreneur. It’s kind of like an interesting, kind of like lonely job, right?

But like going through EOS, like really realized being an entrepreneur and being lonely, it wasn’t that, it was, I just didn’t understand completely what it meant to kind of be able to have that creativity, but also then lead outside of kind of that muscle and feel. And like kind of explain to the group, like when you all talk about like the structure, like what’s a visionary, what’s an integrator, how does that play effect or how did that play effect for even you as a leader?

Ben Berman
Yeah, so I want to, I first want to just put a pin in the phrasing you had, because I love the phrasing, which is your curiosity. And if we were to look in the servant leader’s handbook, I would think on the first page is curiosity, right? Be genuinely curious.

Nicholas Paulukow
That’s a good one.

Ben Berman
It’s hard, I’ve seen it many times, it’s hard. So I’d love to come back to that. But as far as leadership and visionary, integrator, and all these terms, I said before, I don’t care what it’s called, but there are going to be these distinct roles on a team that people naturally gravitate towards, one of which being visionary and another being integrator.

Now, I have the distinct fortune or I should actually add for most around me at the time, misfortune of having sat in both seats. Meaning when I say visionary, I’m talking about someone who’s really great at problem solving and oftentimes ADD and excitable and shows up to the call and says, hey, what are we doing? But they’re the type of people who can bring a business forward, who can really own the future and drive and inspire others to do certain things.

Whereas an integrator is going to be more on the nitty gritty, the execution, the operation, the steady cadence. So I would say I had a lot of shame. And shame can kill you as a leader and as a person.

A lot of shame around the fact that I wasn’t a better integrator. Oh, I’m unsteady. I’m not able to stay in the weeds.

When in fact, as soon as I dropped that strategic hubris and instead opted for humility, I was like, how great is this? I can actually be in a seat where I’m most effective and I can give someone who’s even better than that seat than I was trying to fake my way through, let them be successful. And now we’ve gotten two people in seats that they’re supposed to actually be and then unlocking leadership respectively.

So I think people think that a leader has to be banging on the table or has to be involved in all the details or all those things. Leadership takes many different forms and many different structures for that matter. What I think is important is having, we call it a leadership team, where you can look around the table and have people who are thinking, what is for the greatest good of the organization, inclusive of taking me out of whatever I’m doing right now.

Because even though I’m muscling through, touch and feel like you said, if I’m not the best one to do it, get me the heck out of it. Otherwise, I am actually doing a disservice, not just to my team, but to myself and my company.

Nicholas Paulukow
That’s a really valid point. A lesson learned that I captured in my career was that, that’s a really valid point, right? As you’re growing as a leader, it was really amazing to see, like you feel that you had to do both.

I use the word, I think, do both. And what I found that I thought was really exciting is where somebody said on my team a long time ago, hey, you’re not crazy. And I’m like, whoa, like crazy is kind of a strong world.

I’m pretty excitable. But in reality, there was a reason that that separation of what does a visionary do? What does an integrator do?

And it was really, that’s when it really unlocked the success of realizing that there are defined seats and that we can both be successful and they can run in harmony. But it’s almost like an amazing dance routine, right? Like if you have the right piece to that, it really does become quite successful and you’re able to lead together.

And I think you mentioned earlier too, you started with kind of like the mission, right? And like that seems to fall apart when you’re kind of starting and you’re the energy and you’re selling the mission and vision like every minute. And then you’re like, oh man, there’s too many people to sell the vision and mission to.

I think it’s pretty amazing on how the system like EOS allows the visionary and integrator to effectively coach and train their team on what that mission and vision is. And I think that re-energizes the, re-energizes kind of the engine of the organization or at least in our experience it did. Yeah.

Ben Berman
I’m sorry, go ahead, Ben. No, no, I think you’re really onto something there as far as selling the vision and the energy it requires. I think what’s nice about what we do in EOS and frankly what I would encourage you out there to do is sometimes integrators hear that and go, like visionary just gets to sit under a tree and basically hang out and come up with big ideas and drop in crap and then everyone has to deal with it.

It’s not quite that way. The idea about the pairing between a visionary and integrator or an operator, you can call it a CEO, it doesn’t matter what you’re calling those terms is you’re unlocking the best from one another and it’s a perfect puzzle piece match. So yes, absolutely it is a dance and that particular dance style is actually, it’s incumbent on whoever the founding leader is, oftentimes visionary, to find the person who’s dancing the style they’re with.

If you’re dancing polka and someone else is dancing hip hop, you can dance together but it’s not going to be pretty.

Nicholas Paulukow
I can’t dance so that would be a problem. Well, you seem to do it well in the metaphorical sense pretty well. Thank you, thank you.

Well, so you mentioned kind of EOS and getting your journey started there. So like how has like your leadership or servant leadership played a role in now facilitating EOS sessions?

Ben Berman
Oh, that’s interesting. Yeah, I love that question. And in order to answer it, I want to give it a minute just to think.

Okay. I think that I have found great joy in EOS facilitation and by EOS facilitation, I mean coming in and working with clients and even coaching other EOS implementers, right? So I’ve been blessed to be, you said expert, that’s just a designation for a certain amount, but all in I’ve worked with 100 plus companies, 750 plus sessions.

I’ve been around the block a couple of times and my greatest joy, I think is an analog to what a great servant leaders within an organization’s greatest joy is, which is sure there is a lucrative nature to it and I’ve been blessed in many ways throughout my business career, but it’s the joy I get in seeing a team unlocked, right? If you think you want to be a leader, you don’t just get to wear the crown, so to speak. You really have to be someone who delights in the success of others.

And yes, you’re building something. So in the session room, I find myself facilitating and drawing out of people in the same way that I see then my clients demonstrating that same leadership, that same curiosity, that same steady force, which is not necessarily brutal for the sake of being brutal, but is always brutally honest, right? They keep it real so that you can get to real issues.

So that’s a lot of words to say. I find that enabling other people’s success is the ultimate form of servant leadership. It’s why I love so much what I do in and out of the EOS community.

It’s why I’ve built the things outside of the EOS community to support that. And it’s why, frankly, I just have such respect and love for my clients, because even if they don’t start out as great leaders, when we work together, they, and most importantly, their teams become great leaders through the process.

Nicholas Paulukow
You’re absolutely right. I think, you know, from a EOS facilitator standpoint, do you generally see them being more like visionary individuals, or does that really not matter? Help us understand why a visionary would want to be a facilitator.

Ben Berman
Yes, I believe you phrased that question differently another time. And a lot of people marvel at it, because I believe, this may be changing, but I believe if you look at some of the most accomplished EOS implementers like myself, the vast majority are visionaries, not integrators. And I think that speaks to something.

So my mentor and I often talk about the idea of structured flexibility. And I think that’s a level of leadership as well, where leaders who are given, like EOS, a set of tools within which they can play in that sandbox and innovate and make it their own, tend to outperform those who have to just follow the book, right? So, however, if they’re not given that structure, and structure can mean many things, that energy goes in a lot of different directions.

So I would actually tell you in reflecting on some of the people I’ve worked with, and a lot of our community, there are quite a few integrator EOS implementers who are fantastic. But what I would say sets visionaries apart is we have a deep empathy for the visionary and others on the team, because we know what it’s like to try to get our point across and be using perfect language for us and have other people not quite get it.

Nicholas Paulukow
That is well said, well said. Now we’ve been talking about EOS this entire time, but we were remiss to those that don’t even know what EOS is. So let’s rewind for a second.

Give us a brief overview of what EOS, what it is, who aligns to it, maybe some principles or reasons on why you would want to utilize EOS. Quick start visionaries here, we got started right away. And those that maybe don’t even know what it is probably would want to know how it could help them.

Ben Berman
Absolutely, and I’ll just say again, I don’t care what you call it. I don’t care whether you call it the EOS tools or traction being the namesake book. These same concepts are true across every successful business.

And those concepts are basically the following. Get everyone on the same page, rowing the same direction, we call that vision. Getting the right people on the bus, so structuring the right, we call it an accountability chart, but basically who’s accountable for what so that it flows, right?

That’s on the people side. We say, making sure you have data so you can cut through the noise, because a lot of times there’s a lot of BS and noise in the business, especially as a leader when a lot of things are going on. We make sure people are solving issues at the root cause instead of just swatting at the mosquito, we go after the nest.

We make sure it’s scalable through process, thank you. And then finally, like I said, the namesake is traction where we take it down to the ground and say, how do we create discipline, communication, and accountability, which so many leaders crave, but a lot of times it just exhausts them to have to go through. So the framework enables you to take care of that stuff that you don’t have to make up.

Your job, Nick, in your business is not to make up the best business tool process in the world, it’s to run your business, right? It’s to be the best damn business in your category. And I think a lot of times leaders are doing themselves a disservice by not only being the great at their business, and that’s already a battlefield in and of itself, but they’re fighting a two-front war where on the other front, they’re trying to muscle their way through these best practices where just get these best practices.

That’s right. Michael Jordan had a coach. Yeah, Michael Jordan had multiple coaches, best in the world.

So if he had coaches, why wouldn’t you?

Nicholas Paulukow
It’s well said. I think for a lot of us that are creative entrepreneurs, we crave a system, although we might not like all the details, but it’s more of like getting everybody aligned on the same thing, right? Creates that traction.

That’s amazing. That’s amazing. So you mentioned kind of many of the sessions that you’ve facilitated.

So why don’t you kind of give us an understanding of some common challenges maybe you observe in leadership teams?

Ben Berman
Oh man, we’re going to need another couple of hours. So really I’d say they fall into a few key categories. I think a lot of times that people don’t have the right people in the right seats or when they do, they’re nervous about them leaving or even when they’re not nervous about them leaving, they can’t quite get, they know there’s more.

There’s more left on, right? There’s more meat on that bone you want to be able to pull out of that person, but you just can’t figure out how. I’d say it’s a pretty typical leader challenge, leadership team.

And just for those listening, leadership team we’re referring to here is let’s just talk about the functional leaders in your business who are thinking at least ideally strategically high level on the business, not just in the actual function. So sometimes it’s a leadership team of one if you’re just starting. All right.

So leadership.

Nicholas Paulukow
We are back in live.

Ben Berman
Back in live. So leadership teams, sometimes it’s one person leading from the top. Other times it’s basically your functional leaders.

Usually we don’t want to have more than seven, quite a bit of research that suggests it shouldn’t be more than seven. But these are the people who are helping you make the strategic decisions in the business. And in those teams, a lot of times there’s frustration.

How do we get more profit out of the business? How do we break through the ceiling? How do we get to that next level?

I feel like we’re stuck in a plateau. How do we get out of this control spiral where it feels like we’ve talked sometimes about this EOS life concept, right? We’re having all these things balance.

And I would say even more than balance, but harmony, harmony between your personal life and your professional life. It feels like the business is controlling you. There’s a host of issues we see, but they tend to be pattern recognition over and over and over again, the same thing.

So I think there’s benefit to working with an experienced facilitator who says, oh, I noticed this, or this is showing up that doesn’t quite match with that person’s stated objective. I wonder if there’s something more there and who could be the outside, frankly, benevolent prick to say, I love you, but I’m going to push you harder than you would push yourselves so we can get to a better outcome.

Nicholas Paulukow
I think that’s well said. And for my example, right, Ben being our facilitator, it is extremely helpful to have a third party by no means, sometimes emotions come into play or you get really into the weeds and it really provides a lot of clarity. You kind of get it.

And one thing that you said earlier is that setting clear goals and expectations, you know, talk a little bit more about that from a leadership perspective. Many times us as leaders have these really, really great ideas, but apparently we’re not as clear as we can or could be. And I think the EOS system allows us to have that consistent clarity.

You know, tell the listeners a little bit about kind of that goal setting or expectation setting and how that works to get clearly facilitated down to the rest of the team.

Ben Berman
Yeah, yeah. And, you know, for what it’s worth, we break the world down of leadership into leadership and management. So leadership being sort of the on the business thought side of things, as far as management more in the execution day-to-day.

And if you think about the vision, right, or the leadership side of it, people spend so much time, strategy, planning and all this stuff. And there’s a place for it, right? That analysis has a place, but I think a lot of people play there because that’s where they’re comfortable and then it never sees the light of day.

It’s sort of like being incubated forever. And I would say my rationale or our rationale on this is let’s get the simplest, clearest version of what the basics of a strategic plan are. We break it down into eight questions and let’s make it so that it’s not a 200-page manual, but actually something that people are going to be able to use, refer to, and benefit from on a daily basis.

So, right, core values, who we are, what are we focused on? What’s our why and our what? We happen to call that our core focus.

And then we break here, like we say, where are we going from a target long-term? What’s your big, hairy, audacious goal? Energy goes in that direction.

What is our three-year? So midterm, what’s it look like? So we can make sure that we’re on the same page about the literal vision in our mind’s eye.

We break it down and say, what are the three to seven things we do this year? What are the three to seven things we’re going to do this quarter? And then what’s our economic engine to get there?

We call that our marketing strategy. And what’s the stuff that we need to keep mindful of that doesn’t fit that, that we don’t have time to focus on? That’s our long-term issues list.

If you can tell me the answer to those questions, you’re good. I mean, that is it. People don’t need that much more.

I think a lot of times people obsess about the plan without actually obsessing about the leadership. And the leadership is taking that plan and going to every person or everyone on the level below you and saying, your department is accountable for this part of the plan. Do you understand?

Do you have any questions? Do you have any feedback? And then letting them do that over, right?

Great leaders create great leaders. So if you can just spend all your time, Nick, if we could free you up to spend your entire day talking to ONE 2 ONE team members and saying, here’s how you fit in the greater whole and here’s why it matters what you do, how you answer the phone, how you service, the company is going to skyrocket. So that’s what it’s all about.

Nicholas Paulukow
Yeah, you’re absolutely right. I think that’s really key. I think one thing that you said there, the core values, right?

Many people talk about this core values that you mentioned, core values to people. And they’re just like, well, we have core values. Well, that’s great.

I think one of the game changers for us, for anybody that wants to listen, is that when we sat back and at an aha moment of like, when do we get frustrated? When do we get upset? When do we look at an employee and say, why did they not fit?

And in reality, out of our own ignorance, it was defined core values that we didn’t have written down. And the day that that became an aha moment of like, hey, I think what is at risk is our core value, we realized. And why we were upset and frustrated was an actual core value that we didn’t have defined.

I think it’s really great because then that centered us on how did we get a cohesive team? We got a cohesive team around those core values. Obviously, they need to know what to do.

Did they get it and want it and have the capacity to do it? But when that core value was in alignment, you could successfully process many, many things because you’re on the same page.

Ben Berman
Yeah, yeah. And Nick, I’m smiling over here because I’m thinking and I feel badly for you genuinely, how many times you try to express that concept over the order before we did it. And it’s just, I keep saying, business is hard enough.

Keep it simple, use the stuff that works and build from there. And what’s nice about each of these things and what I believe about business in general is if we can just keep it simple and clear, then you actually have a fighting chance of getting people to remember it in between the texts they got from their spouse, the things they’re doing for your work, all that other stuff that’s bouncing around their brains, we have a place to hook it onto. Otherwise, it just sort of floats away to the abyss.

Nicholas Paulukow
That’s right. Yeah, I agree wholeheartedly, right? Like I think everything that you’re saying is some level of alignment in some way or seeing misunderstood and now you’re trying to get in alignment with others in there too.

So give us, we all want to hear since you’ve had so many sessions, give us like a short success story. Like, I’m sure you have a ton, but give us one that we can grab onto that we really can connect to.

Ben Berman
Yeah, there are quite a few. I mean, I’d say that about, I think we’re close to, I think we’re in the double digits now for successful exits, meaningful, massive enterprise value created and very, very rich and happy founders or not even founders, but operators who benefited from growing their business. But to me, I look at the stories of, all those stories exist, but I look at it as more of an avoided disaster.

And I’ve had quite a few teams, and this is going back almost to ancient history it feels like now, but quite a few teams and leaders call me up unprompted and say, you know, if we hadn’t worked with you, if we hadn’t done this stuff, we wouldn’t have made it through COVID. We wouldn’t have been able to hire this amazing leadership team. We wouldn’t, I mean, I’m talking about, there’s one team I look back on and they quite literally, when we asked them for direct feedback on one another, they almost revolted.

I mean, they literally stopped the session. We’re like, we don’t feel comfortable giving feedback, et cetera, et cetera. And it was not a function of anything, but people on that team knew that they were in the wrong place and they were trying to hide.

And once we got clear on that, the people who did fit stayed and were thrilled because now all the schleprocks were off the platform and they were replaced with strong leaders. And you just saw the entire, I mean, I’m talking about sure. Yeah, we’re going to make money.

We’re going to create value. We’re going to do all those things. That’s not a problem.

We’re going to make your life easier. But I think for me, one of the greatest joys is looking at the quality of life and the freedom for all of these leaders on this leadership team where you have the growth, you have the successful business and you have a better quality of life. It’s that piece too.

Sure, we could create tons of value, but a lot of people are going to have you sacrifice the quality of your life. I’m looking to invite all of you to say, we actually believe in a way that you actually can improve both your life and how your life is going outside of work, which in turn contributes to your work and vice versa.

Nicholas Paulukow
That’s well said. Is there any misconceptions? So like people are used to like consultants, right?

And they’re like, oh, I’ve been so burnt by so many consultants. This is a new fad. How does really EOS really help me?

How can, how do they really lead? And I think a minute ago, you just said it and I want you to expand on it. You said, hey, listen, the teacher teaches, you know, the next teacher, right?

Like this isn’t like you come in and consult and tell us all these great concepts that we never know how to implement, right? Like you’re here as more of a teacher. Could you maybe expand on maybe some of the misconceptions of considering this not a consulting engagement?

Ben Berman
Yeah, yeah, totally. I, although I’ve seen a lot of things, I wouldn’t want anyone to come and only expect that I’m going to tell them the answer. If so, you’re not the right client for me.

What we have spent, and I’ve spent quite literally hundreds of thousands of dollars sharpening the saw on this, is we are teachers, coaches, and facilitators, right? We’re going to teach you the system, not just the system, but some of the nuances that make it work. We’re going to coach you through the finer parts of it.

And then finally, we’re going to facilitate the crap out of the team so that you can just be a participant, so that you can just let yourself go and be fully focused on that. So, and frankly, smooth out the wrinkles in the team. That’s my accountability.

So that you could just be there fully present and do your thing. I think there’s a common misconception that we’re going to give the answer. In rare cases, we will drop in.

And after a lot of protesting, we might say, you know, you might want to consider X, Y, Z. But our job, unlike consultants, you know, the famous line about consultants, I think it was Nassim Taleb wrote, he said, I’ve never seen a consultant that didn’t sell you as one of his suggestions, more consulting, right? It was like, yeah, we should do that, but also- I live in.

No, so our job is to help you catch the fish and teach you the fish, which is why we do it on the EOS side. And because EOS becomes so clear, it’s this like, your vision, and suddenly you can see clearly now the rain is gone. You will see elements in your business that need additional work.

And those, because they’re so frequent and consistent through many businesses, I, through What If, have built additional services that say, hey, let’s solve those things for you as well. But the key is, the key is, it all starts with having a clear vision of where you want to go, a clear picture of what’s actually happening on the ground right now, and looking at those contrasts and really looking at it. Because you can sweep it under the rug, that’s fine with me, but eventually that rot is going to give way.

Whereas when we shine that light on it, it’s your decision on how we move forward, and we merely offer opportunities, tools, and solutions to solve them for you, with you, or train you to do it yourself.

Nicholas Paulukow
Well said. I love it because it lives. It’s like a living being in your organization, right?

Like, so as soon as you let it go and you let go of that vine and you start teaching other people, it creates this ecosystem of issue processing and freedom and client retention and employee retention because we hear in our organization, everybody has a voice now, right? And they can give their feedback. But there is not a negative, but a challenge is being in an organization now that has open and honesty.

When you bring a new employee in, you almost have to reprogram them of like, oh, I can actually speak up, right?

Ben Berman
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Nick, you’ve seen it, that first moment where they take a gamble with some feedback and they look around and they’re used to being beaten down and they sort of exhale to say, oh, thanks for that feedback. Let’s dive into it.

I think it’s so key. And it’s funny, go read the book, go try to implement it on your own, go do all those things. I tend to move faster than most.

I’ll get you up to speed on EOS and my team moves quick. So we’ll get you up to speed on those basics. It’s the facilitation why people keep us around.

It’s the driving you further. It’s the elevating the conversation, the business, and the outcomes. That’s where I think the real value is created.

Nicholas Paulukow
I think that’s great, that’s great. What would you say like are the top three challenges that people quickly overcome as they work to implement EOS?

Ben Berman
Oh, top three.

Nicholas Paulukow
Well, I mean, we don’t have all day, right? We both get excited on the subject. So I’ll narrow it down to three.

Ben Berman
Sure, sure, fair enough. Right now, yeah, it’s great. I think there’s a visionary’s curse, number one, which is why can’t people just do things the way I want them to?

Like, why do I feel like I always have to follow up, repeat myself, et cetera, et cetera? Usually it’s not the message, it’s the tool the message is being delivered through. So there’s a, usually without intervention, that line is a little crackly and there’s a lot of static.

We remove that static and let that message come through. That’s number one. I’d say number two, it’s not being sure you have the right people in the right seats.

This becomes immensely clarifying. And then when you’re clear on it, helping get the people up to speed. So you might have someone who’s a potential rockstar, but you’re not quite sure how to get them there, to motivate them, keep them.

I think that’s all part of it. And then, a lot of times I see teams try to implement EOS on their own. And these are all really powerful tools, getting a scorecard, so you have a pulse in the business, having an accountability chart, so you know who’s accountable for what and so on.

It’s the elegant integration of all those tools. We give that stuff away for free. It’s the usage of them in concert with one another.

Anyone can go make sound, we help you make music.

Nicholas Paulukow
It sounds like you give a lot of empowerment too, right? Oh, totally. It’s complete empowerment to own it on your own.

The experience is amazing when you learn it and you’re like, okay, well now I’m gonna leave and you need to teach the next set of people. And you’re like, what? I just learned it like eight hours.

Well, like, what do you mean? And I think it’s the coolest part that it create, it is a system that even an entrepreneur can implement, right?

Ben Berman
Yeah, it’s designed. Oh, one more misconception or challenge I think that people have. They say, a lot of times they’ll say, you said top three, but visionary style, I’m gonna go four and five.

They say it’s too hard or it’s too expensive or it takes too long. That’s maybe six, right? So as far as too hard, if you’re doing it the right way, right now we’re using technology.

If we wanna get our message out to the world, we could stand on the corner and yell, but these tools that we’re using, this microphone, this computer, this software helps us amplify that message and have an easier time. So you’re not changing the thing that you’re doing, or let me rephrase that. You’re not having to do additional stuff.

You’re changing the way that you’re doing it. As far as expense, it’s a fully guaranteed investment. And if I’m not giving my clients 10X value every time, then I return the check.

I don’t get paid. So there’s no worry there. And then finally, as far as speed, right?

We move to your point, we empower you. If you wanna go rapid fire, blast through this in three months, great. We have, at least on my team, the energy to do so, but it’s really about making it their own.

This is not cookie cutter, out of the box, force everyone into a square peg round hole type stuff. This is a structured flexibility. We understand the guidelines, the first principles that define them, and we’re gonna help you understand those first principles so that when you go and teach your team, you’re not just blindly leaning from a script either.

You’re actually delivering the understanding of the why behind the what, which, oh, look at that, is great leadership in of itself.

Nicholas Paulukow
It is, that value said. So how do you, Ben, I mean, you’re teaching all these other teachers, right? Like what are some highlights of either books or resources that would help many other people that are listening today, right?

I mean, many of these things we didn’t inherently, we didn’t just wake up and all of a sudden know how to implement. So we’re constantly learning, and that’s a big thing for leaders is they think they need to know everything. I think you mentioned that earlier.

I think what we need to do is have a culture of constant ability to learn and find or emulate even other leaders too, right? Like where do you get that further education?

Ben Berman
Yeah, yeah, I like that because even for us, I mean, even with all the experience I have, this is not a hill that has been climbed. This is like sort of like a stair-stepper. It is endlessly going.

It is endlessly going. It never stops. Never stops, but right?

So that’s, I think, one function of it. As far as specific resources, I have the hard resources as in specific, like you can go look at them, such as the book Traction. Go read the book Traction by Gino Wickman.

It’s going to inspire you quite a bit. My team, actually myself and my team will spend 90 minutes for free with anyone to walk through their business. So all you got to do is email and say that you’d like to spend 90 minutes learning more and totally free, no expectation of anything.

We just want to help.

Nicholas Paulukow
So that’s really, I’d say- Where do they email? Where do they email?

Ben Berman
Ben.Berman, B-E-R-M-A-N, B like boy, at E-O-S, EchoOscarSierraWorldwide.com, E-O-S, like the EntrepreneurialOperatingSystem.com. So Ben.Berman at EOS Worldwide. So those are some of the harder, but I would also encourage leaders to, it’s a joyful thing to be a leader when you can take inspiration from a lot of places.

So quite literally, I remember reading about Israeli commanders from the beginning. They lead from the front. If you’re in a tank battalion, their commander’s tank is up front, not in the back.

I think that’s one of the ways I would think of servant leadership. I think there’s a great deal of, I’m very blessed, as you know, to have an eight-month-old. There’s a great deal of servant leadership with kids.

Nicholas Paulukow
Right, I mean- Absolutely.

Ben Berman
So I think finding, it’s the obvious specific resources, but also looking to a whole different litany of places in faith, as we’ve discussed, in family, in friends to be a servant leader. I think how you do one thing is how you do all things. So the joy of leadership, I don’t say it’s a burden necessarily, but the joy of learning and being a leader is something that a great leader experiences in all areas of their life, even when they’re not quote-unquote being identified as the leader.

Because having had a daughter, I’m the third most important person in my immediate household now, and I’m perfectly okay with that.

Nicholas Paulukow
Well, you make a valid point though, too. There’s so many people that are like, well, I’m not a leader in the sense of the actual leading and managing people, right? And I’m like, but you’re still a leader in the area that you’re in.

And I don’t think many people always grasp that, right? Like, you’re leading every day, regardless of what seat you sit in, right?

Ben Berman
Yeah, yeah, it’s about leadership behaviors, not gaining followers.

Nicholas Paulukow
That is right, that is right. And I think the ones that are the best are the ones in the shadow, right? Because they know what it means to be a leader, right?

That they’re not always just the center of the action.

Ben Berman
Absolutely, absolutely.

Nicholas Paulukow
And you said that, right? They’re out and about, that people are following them. So that’s awesome.

Ben Berman
Yep, yep, absolutely. So even if you are not someone currently sitting in a quote-unquote leadership position, all the better to start demonstrating these behaviors today in your personal life and otherwise. I can 100% guarantee you’re going to get good results.

So why not just adopt them in the meantime? And the world will take notice. The world has a pretty efficient system for taking notice of these types of things.

Nicholas Paulukow
Well, hey, and there is a great book, I think EOS has on how to be a great boss, right? Yep. Anybody that’s interested in reading that, read it.

It’s a small book and it’s really awesome. It goes through your set of questions. And at the end it says, you know what?

It’s okay not, if you answered these and you’re not interested, it’s okay. You’re still a leader. You just might not be ready to be a boss yet.

And I thought that that was phenomenal, right? Like everybody’s always like soft landing. This just gets right to it.

Like, I’m sorry, you’re just not ready for it. And I think it’s also an aha, I read it frequently just to reset my brain to say, hey, listen, these are the things that it means to be a boss or to lead, right?

Ben Berman
Yes, yes. And you’re reminding me actually. So I have the great privilege as an expert implementer in Philly, in Florida, in both coasts of Florida, in New York and in DC, I will be leading great boss workshops where they take a super deep dive on every single thing we’re talking about here and way more.

So look out on the social sphere to see that come to market. But you’ll be seeing, look for Ben Berman. I think we’re going to, in fact, I know we’re bringing a whole team together to make it really special.

And it’s an opportunity for those who either are aspiring to be bosses, certainly are leaders or wanting to be leaders and anywhere in between to really get the full scope of these skills and get them so that you can keep them forever.

Nicholas Paulukow
That’s amazing. Ben, as we start to wrap it up, what are your last words of wisdom for everybody listening today?

Ben Berman
If you want to go fast, this is words that were told to me when I was young. I screwed it up 50 times and only on the 51st was I able to learn this, which is, if you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go together, right?

So it’s going to be, it’s different going fast and you can go fast together, but make sure that you get that second part. Otherwise you’re going to leave everyone in the dust. Actually, I’m going to leave with a different quote if I may, because that one’s, I think, well-known.

It’s probably my favorite quote. Anyone who’s heard me speak before has probably heard me reference it, but Epictetus, a lot of great servant leaders are Demarcus Aurelius and the Stoics. And Epictetus, one of those Stoics says, how long will you wait until you demand the best for yourself?

It’s in my desk right here. I just find myself wondering that so many times. So if you were wondering, should I take that action?

Should I make that call? Should I take that meeting? Should I read that book?

Let this be an invitation to you to demand the best for yourself starting now, because it doesn’t matter what happened in the past. The opportunity right now is to actually change it.

Nicholas Paulukow
That’s amazing. Ben, we appreciate you very much. And that wraps, dear listeners.

Our time here in Servant Leadership Library has come to an end, but fear not, for the wisdom shared by our esteemed guest, Ben Berman, will linger in our hearts and minds. As we bid allude to this chapter of our podcast journey, let’s remember to carry the torch of servant leadership high and proud, and who better to lighten the way than an EOS expert extraordinaire, Ben Berman. With his insights, humor, and a dash of cheekiness, Ben has truly shown us that leadership isn’t just about being at the top.

It’s about lifting others up along the way. So until next time, my fellow seekers of servant leadership, keep reading, keep leading, keep serving. This is Nick Paulukow signing off from the Servant Leader’s Library.

Stay inspired, stay empowered, and above all, stay cheeky. Stay cheeky. Awesome, awesome, awesome.

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