In this episode of the Servant Leader’s Library, I had the privilege of hosting Amy Holtz, a dynamic entrepreneur and certified EOS implementer who brings a wealth of experience in guiding leadership teams and entrepreneurs.
Amy’s journey is a testament to the power of resilience, empathy, and the relentless pursuit of truth. Amy’s entrepreneurial path has been marked by significant milestones and profound lessons, from her beginnings in the family business of party stores to becoming Party City’s largest franchise.
Join us as we delve into Amy’s unique perspective on leadership, accountability, and the transformative journey of discovering one’s true purpose.
Watch the episode above or listen over at Spotify. Make sure to subscribe so you don’t miss the next great servant leader’s story!
Want to Be the Next Guest?
Episode Transcript
Nicholas Paulukow
All right, perfect. Perfect. All right, welcome to Servant Leader’s Library where we dive deep into the art of leading with empathy, purpose, and growth in mind.
I’m your host, Nicholas Paulukow, the CEO of ONE 2 ONE, an IT solutions provider for growing businesses. And today we’re joined by the dynamic force of an entrepreneurial mindset herself, Amy Holtz. Amy doesn’t just build businesses; she ignites dreams and fuels ambition.
A serial entrepreneur and passionate advocate for pushing boundaries, Amy is on a mission to help others achieve far beyond what she ever imagined. With her expertise in guiding entrepreneurs and leadership teams, Amy, a certified EOS implementer and DISC facilitator, brings a wealth of knowledge to the table.
So grab your favorite leadership book, settle in, and get ready to be inspired by Amy’s insight on achieving greatness through servant leadership. Welcome, Amy, and thank you for being with us today. Would you mind kind of introducing yourself to our visitors?
Amy Holtz
Thank you so much. It’s a pleasure to be here. I’d be thrilled to introduce myself, but rather than give the standard bio of my history, which you could read on LinkedIn, I’m gonna tell you what has driven my leadership journey because it ties so well into servant leadership.
Nicholas Paulukow
I love it.
Amy Holtz
I became religious much later in life. I’m a religious Jew, and what drove my entire leadership journey was something about lighting the Hanukkah candles. In Judaism, a candle, a light, represents a soul. And what we learn when we light the Hanukkah candles is that when you take your light and light another candle, it doesn’t diminish your light at all, but you bring more light into the world.
And that’s driven what I believe my leadership journey is all about. I love that you use the word ignite. I don’t know that I use that word in my LinkedIn, but that is what I’m about: igniting other people’s souls and letting them shine because people have so much to give.
Nicholas Paulukow
I love that. That’s amazing. So I think we were talking before we got started today about how in my faith, Catholicism, we just last weekend talked about a similar thing, right?
And in regards to that, it talks about the Holy Spirit and that light of guiding and filling. In our world, we end Easter, and now it’s about this true new beginning. I think that’s wonderful.
A great way to start us off. I’m really excited to hear how you tie all this together. So, no, I’m sorry, go ahead.
Amy Holtz
No, I was gonna give you my view of what I think great leaders do. First of all, they make space for other people. C.S. Lewis has a beautiful quote. It’s all about humility.
Like Moses was the greatest leader of all time, and he was also the most humble person of all time. And what they say about him is not that humility means thinking you’re not important or something like that. Humility is understanding your worth.
And C.S. Lewis has this quote that I love: “Humility is not thinking less of yourself, it’s thinking of yourself less often.” And I love it too.
And I see that the greatest leaders pull themselves back, listen carefully, and give their people the opportunity to shine and grow. And it’s really hard.
Nicholas Paulukow
It is hard.
Amy Holtz
It’s really hard, especially for people like me or you who have built businesses and think we know all the answers and probably have the answers, and we could do it faster if we just give everyone the answers. But great leaders build leaders; they light their candle and make it brighter.
Nicholas Paulukow
Oh, I love that. That is wonderful. And you know, a lot of our listeners are coming from leadership in very different directions, right?
Some are leaders now, some are trying to just even define what leadership is, others are trying to go through the journey, right? And I think they say there are five levels of leadership, right? And they change all the time.
So, you know, from your perspective, for someone trying to get into leadership today and utilizing the concept you’re saying, what would you have to say for them? I mean, did you just immediately one day show up and say, “Listen, I’m gonna become a leader,” right? What inspired you to go on your journey and feel the way that you’re feeling?
Amy Holtz
Well, first of all, I just fell into it. I didn’t realize it was happening. You know, like I didn’t realize it was happening; I just fell into it.
We had a family business, which was a chain of party stores. We became Party City’s largest franchise, and I actually had trouble stepping into leadership.
I could tell everybody what to do, but I had a lot of trouble saying I am the boss. So I think that’s like a female thing, which is a whole separate topic. But really, I think that leadership is—you don’t have to be extraordinary.
It’s ordinary people taking responsibility. It’s really taking responsibility. And I think it’s about having a lot of uncommon courage, uncommon clarity, and uncommon caring.
And it’s really just taking responsibility. Most people don’t want responsibility. You know, it sometimes happens to you, or you step up to do it, but you are a servant.
I love servant leadership because it’s not like, “Hey, I’m in charge, I’m so great.” Really, how am I making you better? How am I serving you?
Nicholas Paulukow
I love that. And you know, you use the word in regards to kind of like you said, ownership, right? Like you own it.
You know, many people seem to be trying to understand like what is ownership, right? Like, what do you mean I own it? Like, I’m not the boss, but they seem to struggle in the beginning as they learn, like, what is ownership and what is accountability, right?
Like, what am I accountable for but what do I own? You know, from your experience, you kind of were, it seems like, forged into it, right? You were pushed into kind of working through that.
But for people that you work with on a daily basis, how do you explain to them the difference between accountability and ownership when leading?
Amy Holtz
Well, let me step back for a second. It’s funny. When I first became an EOS implementer, I struggled a lot with accountability.
I ran a nonprofit organization, and I had in my head I was going to raise $2 million. But if the CEO, the guy I was working with, said to me, “Amy, you have to raise a million dollars,” I probably would have said I quit because even though I was gonna raise 2 million, and I did raise 2 million, it was like a stretch goal. The idea of someone saying to me, “You are accountable for doing this,” was very scary. So for me, I struggled with taking accountability for that.
But what I have learned, which is also an EOS concept, is how are you getting to that million dollars a year? That’s your scorecard. I’m gonna call up five rich people a week.
So when you break it down into smaller bites, it becomes easier. So accountability is taking responsibility. I know for me, it was a scary thing. I don’t judge anybody who struggles with that.
Nicholas Paulukow
And do you think that part of accountability is something that you were taught? Did you see someone else do it? Help us understand that a little bit.
Amy Holtz
I’m hyper-responsible; I’m an overachiever, but I never want to let anybody down. And it was a pressure thing. I couldn’t handle the pressure.
I now understand that when you break it down, you can do it. One of my great experiences in life, now that I’m much older, is you can achieve way more than you ever thought possible. And it’s shocking what you can accomplish if you have the tenacity and you follow and you do the work.
But it’s not easy. It’s not easy.
Nicholas Paulukow
And that’s well said because it’s not, right? Many people think that the journey, we always see this iceberg concept, right? Like, what’s on the top of the iceberg is kind of success, and then all of the things underneath it, right?
And many times, people see the success part of where we’re at and think that that’s where they should be, right? For those that are kind of like below the iceberg right now, what advice would you give them as far as getting into their journey, right? Like as you kind of say, “Hey, I was a little apprehensive.” What drew you or what pushed you into kind of moving through that?
Amy Holtz
So first of all, I have a lot of tenacity, but I really believe you need to be living your life purpose. And it’s really what do you love to do and what you’re great at? It’s that state of flow that they talk about in positive psychology.
I believe that when you’re doing things you love to do and you’re great at, and you’re working in a field that you’re passionate about, that’s the game changer. But it takes time, and it’s a journey. I don’t think I understood that it was a journey, and I believe everything is a training program for what you want to do. So when I was at Party City, which was Party Supermarket before we became Party City, I discovered I loved building a business.
And then I started to become religious, and I jokingly used to say I realized I spent my whole day trying to get people to buy things they didn’t need. And then I joined a nonprofit media company, which is today Open Door Media. And what was I doing there?
I was building a business, but I was in a field I loved, and I was passionate about it. So when I was so passionate about it, all the other stuff fell away. A driving thing for me is don’t let your insecurities get in the way of achieving what you want to achieve.
That rule has served me well. When I started working in this nonprofit media company, I said there are two things I’m never doing: I’m never speaking in public, and I’m never fundraising. But then I realized if I wanted to do what I wanted to do, which was very ambitious, I had to do those two things.
So I got training, and I forced myself to do it. I had the tenacity to work through what I needed to do. So I think figure out what you love doing and what you’re great at. Figure out where you want to go, what’s your big goal, and then break it down into pieces. Very much like the EOS Vision Traction Organizer.
Where do you want to be in 10 years? Where do you want to be in three years? What are you going to do this year?
What skills are you going to develop? What are you going to accomplish? And then break it down into quarterly rocks.
And then even those scorecard items of “I’m going to make five fundraising calls a week.” It takes time. Like my first year as a fundraiser, I don’t think I raised a single dollar. But I want to share one other thing that I just shared with somebody else earlier today, which was such a profound moment for me. When I first started fundraising, they said to me, “Listen to all these tapes and be like this person.”
And I did, and I didn’t raise a single dollar. The second I started being me in my leadership journey as a fundraiser, that’s when things started to happen.
You have a unique purpose. You have a beautiful soul. And everyone else is taken.
So be you. And that’s when you’re gonna fly.
Nicholas Paulukow
That is wonderful. That’s beautiful. And so I have to ask, and if you don’t want to answer, that’s fine too.
But tell us, what spurred your spiritual journey?
Amy Holtz
Pure luck. I didn’t believe in God or anything like that. And I walked into a Torah class.
And the person said, “If you don’t know where you’re going, any path will get you there.” And that’s really what my life was. I was always responding to emergencies.
A store got robbed, this person was quitting. This kid was sick. I never was proactive and said, “What do I want my life to look like?”
My life was happening to me. I wasn’t planning my life. So I decided to change that.
And then I still didn’t believe in God, but I decided that it was better that my kids believe in God. Because if they were going through a hard time, they could believe God was testing them. So then I said, “I’m gonna let them believe in it.”
Because I thought that was a good gift to give my kids. And then I started learning Torah, which is what Jews do, and discovered that I actually thought it was true. And that was kind of a bad thing because being a religious Jew comes with a lot of rules.
Nicholas Paulukow
Wow, that’s wonderful. What a beautiful thing, though, right? I mean, you talk about leaning in a lot and just taking the tenacity.
I mean, that takes a lot of tenacity to go from zero to fully invested in that. So kudos to you. I think you’re teaching us over and over again to take the initiative, to kind of lean in and to find what you love, right? Regardless of what the result is.
Amy Holtz
But also be open to truth because that wasn’t what I loved. Many people today don’t live in the world of truth, and they don’t take the time to research what’s really true. So it took 10 years, but unfortunately, I came to the conclusion that it’s true.
So it’s a process, and you gotta be open to truth.
Nicholas Paulukow
I love it. I love it. That’s amazing.
Well, tell us a little bit about your entrepreneurial journey. I see that you have many ventures and a strong education. What spurred you into entrepreneurship outside of just business or leading businesses and that type of thing?
Can you give us a little flavor of what that path looked like?
Amy Holtz
Yeah, it was a little bit of an accident. I was a banker because I didn’t know what I wanted to do in college. So I majored in finance because that was the cool thing to do.
I worked for a bank because it was the job to have. Hated that. Went to law school because I didn’t know what to do.
Practiced law for many years. Also hated that. My father had this chain of eight party stores.
So I said, “Oh, Dad, I’ll open a store.” And that’s where I discovered I loved building a business. It was pure luck, but I loved figuring it out, solving the hard problems, and getting to the next level.
It was such a thrill. We were struggling, though, because we were competing with Party City. Every time I opened a store, they opened across the street from me.
Nicholas Paulukow
Oh no.
Amy Holtz
It wasn’t good. But then the best day of my life happened. They were really big; we weren’t so big. We were like 25 stores, and they ran into financial trouble. So they came to us and said, “Do you want to buy all our duplicate stores?”
We ended up joining them. And I was a big part of helping them grow. We sold about ten years ago, but it was amazing.
But I have to say, for those of you who are struggling, once we started making money and things were going great, I said to my brother one day, “It’s a little boring.” Before, when we were struggling and possibly going out of business, it was so hard, but it was in the struggle that the joy was.
Nicholas Paulukow
Wow. You know, that is so, but it seems like you came from an entrepreneurial family then too, right? Wow. Okay.
Amy Holtz
100%. My father was a great entrepreneur. He’s credited with starting the party industry for sure.
Nicholas Paulukow
Wow. We hear that a lot. We hear a lot of entrepreneurs are spurred by obviously other entrepreneurs.
I think you said a technique a minute ago: somebody gave you something and said, “Emulate this person,” right? And you said truly be yourself. But what a beautiful journey that probably was.
A lot of lessons learned at the dinner table. I know that happens frequently in my family. I think they have a doctorate in business after they get done hearing all the dinner stories.
Amy Holtz
Yeah, I hope my kids are listening. They’re listening somewhere.
Nicholas Paulukow
Well, is there any that journey sounds amazing, right? But is there a defining moment that kind of shaped your leadership journey or even specifically to servant leadership? Like you said it beautifully: serving others.
Like we’re here to shine that light, to empower others.
Was there a defining moment that you could share?
Amy Holtz
It really was what I said at the beginning when I heard that story about the Hanukkah candles. I was like, that is what I’m here to do. And I just love helping people shine their light.
And we get to do so much of that as EOS implementers on a different level. It’s really a privilege. And I believe we’re all here to serve and to help.
Another thing that is really meaningful to me, I see it all the time on leadership teams. Very often, the leader is the big voice at the table, taking up all the air in the room. And I just want to say to them, “Step back a little, take away a little bit of space.”
There’s a concept in Judaism, similar to other concepts. When God created the world, He was everywhere. He had to constrict to make room for other people.
It’s called Tzimtzum. And I believe leaders need to do the same thing. Constrict, give them room to grow, and you don’t have to do everything.
I know how hard it is because usually, as the leader, you have the answer. You know exactly what everybody needs to do, and you could do it ten times faster than them. It’s painful, but if you want to build a self-managing company or focus on growth and big relationships, you have to let them learn. Sometimes I say to my teams, “If it has to be 100% correct, do it.
But what’s the benefit of letting them do it 80% correct and growing and learning?”
Nicholas Paulukow
And that’s a perfect term for leadership. Like, I could be a young person at a department store and be given a leadership role, and they have to follow me because the rules say so. But a true leader allows others to make mistakes and build other leaders. I can’t imagine you’d be able to run 25 locations of the party store without other semblances of leaders, right?
And then teach those other leaders how to lead. That’s neat.
Amy Holtz
Yeah, 100%. Although, it’s easier to say than do. I always tell my one-minute story in EOS. I was COO, head buyer, head merchandiser.
One day, I was unloading a truck, and one of the kids said, “Amy, you’d be a great stock guy.” Easier said than done. I was doing everything, but I teach EOS because even though I’ve been lucky and blessed with a lot of success, I made a million mistakes along the way.
And every mistake I made, I could have avoided had I had EOS. So delegate and elevate, my friends.
Nicholas Paulukow
Well, that’s a great segue into another question I had. So you went from finance education to law to the family business to a nonprofit, and now we’re talking about EOS. How did you get started with EOS? Where did the journey with EOS start? And for those that don’t know what EOS is, can you give us a little understanding?
Amy Holtz
EOS is the Entrepreneurial Operating System, and it helps leaders clarify and achieve their vision, create focused discipline and accountability, build healthy teams and cultures, and ultimately grow. I always used to say running a business is a lot of fun until it’s not. It’s like a complete high in the beginning.
And then what happens is your business starts to control you instead of you controlling your business. I didn’t know there was another alternative, so I co-founded another nonprofit and ran it on EOS. It was as big as when I found God. Talk about a defining moment.
I was like, “Oh my God, I’m running my business. My business isn’t running me. I have to tell everybody about this.” So I became an EOS implementer.
Nicholas Paulukow
You’re running that EOS life.
Amy Holtz
Right, well, it wasn’t the EOS life yet; that came later. But I said I have to be an EOS implementer because my real goal is to help people achieve more than they ever thought possible. This is really a way to help people do that.
As I say, I made so many mistakes, and I could have avoided them all if I had EOS. It’s so powerful, and I really get to live my passion every day.
Nicholas Paulukow
Oh, I love that. I think the one thing that just really impacted me was you said your purpose, right? We all wonder what our core values are, how we operate, and then you had a defining moment of what your purpose was. That is amazing. When we started our EOS journey, I always wondered, as an entrepreneur, why I got upset with an employee or person. It wasn’t their fault, but it was infringing on those core values, and that’s how it made me feel. From a personal standpoint, that’s really impactful, figuring out what your purpose is.
Amy Holtz
Yeah.
Nicholas Paulukow
What do I really want to be? I hear a lot of people saying, “My mother or father wanted me to be this,” or “I went to school because of this.” How many are really trying to figure out their purpose? That was impactful for me too because there are always sections of time.
Amy Holtz
Yeah.
Nicholas Paulukow
You even mentioned that earlier, like now we’re at this part of the business. Do I want to do this anymore? What is my purpose? Thank you for sharing that. It was an aha moment.
Amy Holtz
Wow, that’s great. I want to clarify how I see that a little because you said a lot of good things. People who don’t share your core values aren’t the right people. But when we talk about right seats, they have to get, want, and have the capacity to do their job.
A person is in the right seat when they’re living their passion, their why, and their what. Everyone has a unique purpose, something that no one else can give to the world. Sometimes you outgrow the job, and sometimes the job outgrows you. For me, as you can see from my seven careers, I have about a seven-year attention span, then I need the next thing. I love the startup phase and then move on to the next thing.
You have to figure out sometimes your purpose may not be forever. It may be something different, but for some people, it is. It’s complicated. But you have to know who you are. Everyone has such a special soul that they need to shine bright.
Nicholas Paulukow
I love that. You know, as an EOS implementer, you talked about the get it, want it, and capacity. When you’re teaching people how to identify people for the right seat, how do you coach or train them?
Amy Holtz
First of all, that’s a big thing. I recently became certified in predictive index.
Nicholas Paulukow
Oh, OK, I like that.
Amy Holtz
It’s to use metrics to help figure it out. First, you have to figure out what skill set and behaviors you really need for this job.
For the right fit, you need behavioral interview questions. You have to really think about what you need. Do you need someone who can do repetitive tasks? Do you need someone who likes structure? I had a client recently where the CFO was driving the CEO crazy because he wasn’t moving fast enough. I studied both of their PIs and called the CEO, saying, “Assuming this person is doing a good job technically, this is exactly what you want in a CFO. They are risk-averse, highly accurate, and like the status quo. They’re driving you crazy because they’re not willing to spend $1,000,000 on a whim. So in that case, you need to figure out what you really need. My best CFOs are risk-averse and highly accurate. My best salespeople are the opposite. They are not risk-averse and have tenacity. You need to figure out what’s the seat you need, really spending time on what qualities you need. It’s unbelievable how different leaders have different views of what they need.
Nicholas Paulukow
Umm, yeah.
Amy Holtz
I find that predictive index is very spot on. I know when I’m working with some people, this person needs a lot of guidance. They want to hear exactly how to do the job. Others just say, “Give me the job, and let me figure it out myself.” So you need to know what you need.
Nicholas Paulukow
I love that. If there’s a listener sitting in a seat and questioning themselves, “Is this really for me?”
Amy Holtz
It’s a great thing.
Nicholas Paulukow
Is that something valuable for them to take an assessment tool like predictive index or maybe Colby, or do you have other advice for them?
Amy Holtz
First of all, the more you know about yourself, the better you are. But I would say there’s a new book that just came out for me. It’s “The People Book,” and I would be asking, “Why am I not happy in this job? Is it too stressful? Am I bored? Not challenged enough?” That could be another reason. I love the delegate and elevate tool. For those who don’t know it, you write down everything you do in a month and put it in one of four quadrants.
Things you love to do and are great at, which is a great place to be. Things you like to do and are good at, which is also good.
Then there are things you don’t like to do and are good at. That’s hell. That’s where I lived my whole career because I was good at it, so nobody wanted me to stop doing it, but it’s a complete energy drain.
My kids used to call me the ***** CEO, and I still think I have that nickname.
When you’re in a place where your energy is drained all the time, you’re not so pleasant.
You’re not this servant leader that you want to be. So if that’s it, get out of those tasks. A lot of times, it’s just tasks you can give to someone else today.
You can automate them. The last quadrant is things you don’t like to do and are not good at. Definitely get out of that.
You could be bored, too stressed, or living in things you’re good at but don’t like. You need to talk to your supervisor and find a way to grow. What’s your next challenge? Could we get rid of this task that drains my energy?
Nicholas Paulukow
I love it. Thank you for sharing that.
Amy Holtz
Thank you.
Nicholas Paulukow
As we talk about the balance between your clients and your continuous growth as a leader, how do you do that? You’re talking to leadership teams all the time, teaching them skills. What I know about EOS is that you’re their guide, not really telling them what to do. How do you continue to balance that?
Amy Holtz
First of all, EOS is fantastic. They are constantly training us.
There is always something they’re teaching us. I realize my soul gets fed on learning, so I’m constantly learning and growing.
It’s almost too much. Every day I’m doing something new. That’s why I have 18 certifications; it’s insane.
Nicholas Paulukow
Knowledge is power, right?
Amy Holtz
For me, knowledge is a high. It’s not about power.
It’s really about helping people be better.
Nicholas Paulukow
I love that.
Amy Holtz
I’m not into the power thing. It’s really about how can I help my clients be their best?
Nicholas Paulukow
Umm, I love it. You talk about empathy sometimes. Some people think they shouldn’t be empathetic leaders. I’m like, why not? If you’re truly leading who you are and you’ve built a level of trust with them. As Lencioni says, we have to start with trust. Talk about empathy. What does that mean for you? What does it mean in your leadership or servant leadership? Does it play a factor?
Amy Holtz
It’s funny because I’m probably—it’s a developed skill.
Nicholas Paulukow
Ah, OK.
Amy Holtz
As terrific and kind as I sound, I was a bit of a dictator. When you’re living in hell, doing things you don’t like, you’re under massive pressure. We had 900 people working for us.
It was a very high-stress job, especially in the years when we were under financial pressure.
Nicholas Paulukow
Yeah.
Amy Holtz
So again, easier said than done. I’d love to rewind the clock and redo things, but different people require different things. That’s one of the reasons I like PI, DISC, and all of those things.
Some people really do need empathy; they really need you to do it.
Nicholas Paulukow
Umm.
Amy Holtz
Some people just want the facts; they don’t want empathy. PI helps you understand what your direct reports need. Empathy is not always my greatest strength.
Nicholas Paulukow
Umm.
Amy Holtz
I’m much better with people who are bottom-line and say, “Give me the facts.”
Nicholas Paulukow
Ah.
Amy Holtz
But I have learned because what motivates me is the cost of turnover is so high, whether in dollars or emotional energy.
Nicholas Paulukow
The.
Amy Holtz
I’ve learned to develop the skill when I need to.
Nicholas Paulukow
Right. I love that. We all talk about another tool called Myers-Briggs. I’m thinking while you’re talking, “Wow, empathy is the last thing on my list.” Not because I’m not empathetic, but I make decisions off data. Sometimes that can come across as less empathetic to those with a feeling preference, and they think I’m being harmful.
Amy Holtz
Right.
Nicholas Paulukow
But what I’m getting from you is that as a leader, you’re also learning and adapting to the people you lead.
Amy Holtz
As a leader.
Nicholas Paulukow
I think that’s really key to teach others. I’ve seen other leaders that start to get into leadership and say, “I just don’t understand.” I’m like, “How are you leading them?” They say, “Exactly how I’d want to be led.” I’m like, “How do you know they’re all like you?”
Amy Holtz
Right, yeah.
Nicholas Paulukow
When you start to educate them, if they get it, want it, and have the capacity to learn, they start to realize they can’t say the same thing to everyone in the same way.
Amy Holtz
It’s a very sophisticated level of leadership. I think the direct report needs to understand the leader. Many CEOs have a dominant personality, and sometimes I have to say to them, “You say ‘good morning,’ and everyone hears ‘after you.'”
Nicholas Paulukow
Umm.
Amy Holtz
If you really know people, they need to understand that. I worked with a guy who valued harmony, and I’m very task-oriented and usually think I’m right.
Nicholas Paulukow
Ah.
Amy Holtz
I would tell him what we should do, and he would agree because he valued the relationship. Seven years later, I discovered he was giving in, not because he agreed, but because he cared about the relationship. We’re working on another project now, and I told him, “Don’t ever do that again. If you’re giving in, say, ‘I don’t agree, but I’m giving in.'” I always assumed he agreed with me because dominant people have a strong personality. As an EOS implementer, I’ve had to tone that down, and that’s emotional intelligence.
Nicholas Paulukow
That’s well said. Everything we’re talking about is emotional intelligence, and sometimes that’s really hard. I’ve spoken to people who say, “I’ve been in this role so long; I should just be a leader.” There’s a difference between leading and managing. Why don’t we define those? It’s really hard for them to get it. They think they should be in it, but many times I’m saddened to see people who find themselves in seats because they feel they need to be there, not because it’s their God-given talent. They say, “I’ve done this for 14 years; I should be the manager.”
Amy Holtz
I didn’t.
Nicholas Paulukow
You talk about emotional intelligence. Sometimes that requires self-awareness too, right?
Amy Holtz
Yeah, it’s all self-awareness. People think leadership is much better than it actually is.
Nicholas Paulukow
Some days I’m like, “You can have it.”
Amy Holtz
Right, exactly. When I sold my stores, I was like, “Thank God I don’t have to make these hard decisions all day long.”
Nicholas Paulukow
Earlier, we talked about empowerment. You said you got empowerment through a lot of actions and things you’ve done. Can you talk to us about empowering other leaders or people in your organization from a servant leader perspective? We can learn a lot from you, especially with 900 people. That is a lot of people.
Amy Holtz
For me, the person who led me best, I think great leaders see greatness in other people that they don’t see in themselves.
Nicholas Paulukow
Umm.
Amy Holtz
When you believe in somebody and see what they can do, it raises them to a different level.
Nicholas Paulukow
Umm.
Amy Holtz
That’s what I think it is. If you believe in somebody and see the good, it enables them to see the good in themselves. People become what you expect them to become.
Nicholas Paulukow
Umm.
Amy Holtz
The single most important thing you can do for somebody is to really see their greatness. It’s there. What’s the Jewish definition of love? In Judaism, you have a choice. God says, “Love your neighbor as yourself.” How can God tell you to love somebody? It’s a feeling. Actually, it’s not. The Jewish definition of love is choosing to focus on somebody’s virtues. They have both pluses and minuses, and you can focus on either.
Nicholas Paulukow
Umm.
Amy Holtz
As a leader, you need to focus on the great things about people. For sure, you need to tell them where they need to grow, but who you see is who they become.
Nicholas Paulukow
I love that. Have you experienced in your journey of an owner and a leader from an EOS perspective how that applies to someone who may have the wrong person in the wrong seat? If you have someone trying to work themselves up as a high performer with a lot of skills and ability but have a leader that’s not the right person in the right seat, does that diminish that person from growing? Do they leave the organization?
Amy Holtz
Yeah, all of that.
Nicholas Paulukow
What do you see in that scenario?
Amy Holtz
The single worst thing you can do to a good employee is put them with a bad employee. People leave because of their managers.
Nicholas Paulukow
Umm.
Amy Holtz
They leave because of a job fit and the culture. As the person in charge, it’s your fault if you’re not getting rid of the wrong person in the wrong seat.
Nicholas Paulukow
Umm.
Amy Holtz
It’s such a disservice, and in today’s competitive marketplace, people can find jobs anywhere. I believe from the bottom of my heart that when someone is not the right person for their seat, you’re doing them a favor by letting them go.
Nicholas Paulukow
Umm.
Amy Holtz
I mean, coach them up or coach them out. I don’t think anyone should be surprised, but you’re doing them a favor. You’re not doing your good people a favor, and you’re not doing that person a favor.
Nicholas Paulukow
That’s well said. We hear it all the time. When we talk to other leaders, they say, “It’s painful. I’m a small business. It’s better than having no one until I can find them.”
Amy Holtz
Almost all.
Nicholas Paulukow
What do you say to those people?
Amy Holtz
What’s the damage? What’s the cost of that? Do you want to lose that good employee? What if the person died? What would you do tomorrow?
Nicholas Paulukow
Hmm hmm.
Amy Holtz
You’d find a way to survive. But what’s the cost of keeping that person? My Achilles’ heel has always been what we call in EOS wrong people, right seats. These are jerks who are great at their job. The best store manager is wreaking havoc in your organization in ways you cannot imagine. Every time you get rid of them, you’re like, “Why didn’t I do this sooner?” You’re constantly dealing with their drama. No one person is as important as everybody else. Leadership is hard.
Nicholas Paulukow
Right.
Amy Holtz
This is the tough stuff.
Nicholas Paulukow
It definitely is. You’re right. Absolutely right. That leads into another piece. For aspiring leaders or people working on things, conflict becomes an issue, not an issue but a learning experience. If I create conflict, accountability is conflict. I don’t think accountability is conflict, but many times they feel that accountability is a problem.
Amy Holtz
Yeah.
Nicholas Paulukow
Like, I can lead them and create tools and manage them, but this accountability thing, if they’re the right people, they’ll figure it out. Talk to us about that for people trying to figure that out in their heads.
Amy Holtz
It’s better to kind of—first of all, you owe it to people to tell them what they’re accountable for. That’s your job as a leader.
Nicholas Paulukow
Umm.
Amy Holtz
People need to know if they did a good job or didn’t. It’s basic management 101. It’s having the right amount of stress. Imagine you have a rubber band. A rubber band with no stress does nothing. When you give it the right amount of stress, it becomes useful. If you pull it too far, it pops. It’s the right amount of stress that you’re not making people too crazy. Just for the record, I got that from Alex Freitag, an EOS implementer. He talks a lot about that. You must give people expectations and dignity.
Nicholas Paulukow
Ah.
Amy Holtz
Pat Lencioni has an amazing podcast on this. You have to let people earn their job. They feel good when they produce, and you have to give them dignity. That’s what leadership is.
Nicholas Paulukow
Umm.
Amy Holtz
It’s unacceptable not to tell people what’s expected of them and what they’re accountable for.
Nicholas Paulukow
That’s well said. Many times, there’s also a difficulty in being direct. They think it’s negative, whereas it’s an opportunity.
Amy Holtz
It’s an opportunity, and it’s your job. A great team member wants to know how to grow. It’s a disservice if you’re not telling them where their opportunities for growth are. It’s going to end up being a problem.
Nicholas Paulukow
Umm.
Amy Holtz
I don’t want a friend who’s telling me I’m great when I’m not.
Nicholas Paulukow
Yeah.
Amy Holtz
That’s your job. You create artificial harmony. There’s going to be passive aggression if you do it. You have to have the tough conversations. Leadership takes uncommon courage, uncommon caring, and uncommon clarity. It takes courage to tell people, “This is a growth opportunity for you, and we’re all on a journey to grow.”
Nicholas Paulukow
Yes, we are, aren’t we?
Amy Holtz
What’s the big deal? That’s your job as a manager. I’m not feeling any sympathy for this. It’s your job.
Nicholas Paulukow
And that defines that if people are struggling with that, it might not be the seat meant for them. That’s OK because they have a value to provide somewhere else. But it might not be the seat for them.
Amy Holtz
Or they can develop the skill of learning how to have these conversations.
Nicholas Paulukow
That’s right.
Amy Holtz
It’s a skill. I grew up with a lot of artificial harmony. I never knew how to have conflict. Pat Lencioni talks about a continuum between artificial harmony and destructive conflict. The in-between is constructive conflict, and that’s what great teams are doing.
Nicholas Paulukow
Umm.
Amy Holtz
You have to look at conflict as a search for truth.
Nicholas Paulukow
Right.
Amy Holtz
All that it is. You’re not putting the problem between you.
Nicholas Paulukow
That’s right.
Amy Holtz
It’s like in front of you. How are we going to solve this?
Nicholas Paulukow
Right. It’s just an issue.
Amy Holtz
It’s just an issue. What are our options? We want healthy conflict. If you don’t have conflict on your team, something’s wrong.
Nicholas Paulukow
That’s right.
Amy Holtz
What does Patrick say? We probably don’t trust each other, so why are we trying to do all this other stuff if we don’t trust each other yet?
Nicholas Paulukow
Exactly.
Amy Holtz
Right, exactly.
Nicholas Paulukow
So, kind of from—what a wonderful journey too, right? We hear this a lot from successful entrepreneurs. And what we hear also from students going to college and getting out of college is they feel they have to choose the right path going into it. Many of us who have gone through it say, “This has just been part of our journey,” and you prove that. You’ve gone through all these journeys but aren’t doing exactly what you studied. Can you give some feedback and encouragement to those who are beating themselves up, saying, “I went to school for finance, but I really want to go another path”? Can you help them with some feedback?
Amy Holtz
Yeah. First of all, that’s me. I think it’s crazy that when you’re 18 years old, you’re supposed to decide what you want to do. I didn’t know anything at 18. Those few lucky people who grow up wanting to be a doctor and are passionate about that—I don’t think that’s the majority. Life is a journey.
Nicholas Paulukow
Umm.
Amy Holtz
I actually think it’s an obstacle course, and you’re constantly figuring yourself out. You have a lot of clues along the way, but if you made a mistake and went to law school like me, should I spend the rest of my life being a lawyer and being miserable?
Nicholas Paulukow
Umm.
Amy Holtz
Or should I take a risk on something else? You just do the best you can in life. Know that life is a journey designed for your growth and your soul to shine.
Nicholas Paulukow
Umm.
Amy Holtz
You’re always getting clues. If you get fired, I think that’s a sign you’re not supposed to be in that job. Life’s too short not to do something you love. If you can figure out what it is, it just took me forever to figure it out.
Nicholas Paulukow
Yeah, I hear you. That’s great advice. In my journey, many people told me, “What are you doing that for? You’ll never be successful.” The naysayers motivated me.
Amy Holtz
Right.
Nicholas Paulukow
In the beginning, it’s like, “What do you mean? I’ll figure this out.” But what I realized is that many people say, “Hang out with people you want to become.” I realized I was with wonderful people, but not people who got me anymore. I took that as a negative, but in reality, I was with people who didn’t understand me. EOS was a journey of realizing there are people who think like a visionary, and you’re not nuts. I amplify that because many people might feel lonely, thinking, “Am I the only one who acts and behaves this way?” I needed to put myself in uncomfortable places with people who challenge me, which allows me to grow. It sounds like you’ve mastered that. I can’t imagine going through law school and then deciding to do something else. That takes a lot of guts. It’s impressive.
Amy Holtz
It was very hard to recreate myself, even though I’ve done it 17 times. It’s very hard. At first, you have to go down before you go up, but I wouldn’t trade the journey. I wasn’t happy. It wasn’t right.
Nicholas Paulukow
Right.
Amy Holtz
It wasn’t my passion. It took me a long time to figure out what was right. Jim Collins says it takes 20 years to become an overnight success. I think that’s true in life. If you look at successful people today, they didn’t start out that way. There were a lot of guys unloading trucks, just like I was. It’s a lot of work.
Nicholas Paulukow
Some days I wish I was unloading the truck, but I know that wouldn’t work out for me. I’d be done after an hour. Well, you’ve been wonderful, Amy. As we wind down our time together, I’m sure you have a ton of resources. Can you share some books, podcasts, or tools with the listeners?
Amy Holtz
Well, of course, I love Pat Lencioni like everybody else. I’ll give you two Jewish books that I think apply to everybody. One is called “The Genesis of Leadership.” That’s where I learned about uncommon courage, uncommon caring, and uncommon clarity.
Nicholas Paulukow
Ohh.
Amy Holtz
Rabbi Jonathan Sacks, of blessed memory, wrote a book called “Lessons in Leadership.” He takes each week’s Torah portion and pulls out the leadership lesson. I find that to be great.
Nicholas Paulukow
Umm.
Amy Holtz
I’m a big fan of “The Seven Habits.” Those are the books I thought of. If you had asked me beforehand, I might have thought of more, but I think those are great.
Nicholas Paulukow
Ohh, I love it. I think you mentioned the new “People” book from EOS.
Amy Holtz
Yes.
Nicholas Paulukow
What a wonderful journey that is. If you run EOS and think, “Just another book,” it is worth reading. It brings scenarios together, with all these aha moments. It’s a great book.
Amy Holtz
Teaming and “Traction,” of course.
Nicholas Paulukow
Yes, that’s right.
Amy Holtz
Gino Wickman has a new book called “Shine,” which is all about your soul. It’s very much in line with all these things we’ve been talking about. I would say that’s a great read too.
Nicholas Paulukow
Ohh, I love it.
Amy Holtz
Love it.
Nicholas Paulukow
Any parting comments for the listeners today?
Amy Holtz
If you want to find me, it’s [email protected] or I’m on LinkedIn.
Nicholas Paulukow
Perfect. Amy, are you taking on any new clients for EOS?
Amy Holtz
I think I have two clients graduating soon, so I will have room in the Philadelphia area. If you need EOS somewhere else, I can help you find someone.
Nicholas Paulukow
Perfect. Anybody looking to work on the EOS journey, look Amy up. She’s a great resource. We’ve learned so much from you today, Amy.
Amy Holtz
Thank you.
Nicholas Paulukow
You’re wonderful.
Amy Holtz
Thank you so much. It’s been a pleasure.
Nicholas Paulukow
Thank you all for tuning in to another enlightening episode of the Servant Leader’s Library. I’m your host, Nicholas Paulukow, and today we’ve had the pleasure of chatting with the unstoppable force of entrepreneurship, Amy Holtz. Thank you, Amy, for sharing your wisdom, your infectious passion for building businesses and empowering others. Remember, folks, in the world of servant leadership, the journey never ends.
Want to Be the Next Guest?
Complete the sign-up form and share your servant leadership story!